Riding Shai Hulud

JR Reynolds: Hey, hey, hey, Ian Fosberry's here, folks. We can get started. I've been waiting for 15 minutes for him to figure out his goddamn POS audiovisual setup. He's coming at us with the technology. Nineteen minutes. Folks, ⁓ never doubt that Ian Thelonius Fosberry is precision embodied. Here he is, hailing all the way from Sunny Canada. Joining us through time and space for another episode of Yelling at Robots, episode 11. Action! Get ready! It's time for world-famous Yelling at Robots, starring tech legend Joshua Raphael Reynolds and Ian Thalonius Bosberry. The show starts now. All right, folks, we got a packed show for you today, and we're gonna try to keep our record down to one hour. Daddy Did you did you start recording again? ⁓ I think so. ⁓ okay. I'm not looking just float, bro. All right, folks, we got a packed show for you today. We released our first coding episode last week, and we will follow up and reflect on that with ⁓ some exciting news related. We'll talk about the continued chaos magic and slopification of all of the internet. all of the software that runs the internet and how it's all just crumbling to pieces. And finally we'll follow up or we'll end with with a really uplifting topic of anxiety and disconnection in the engineering space. I mean I guess is it Fuz, is it limited to the engineering space or is it No, I think anxiety is a it's a it not just in engineering. I think it's everybody's feeling it. Yeah, anything anything before we get into it you want to share with the peeps? So. Huh? Huh? Let's ready. Let's get cracking then. Question What did we learn bin the yelling at robots dot com? Answer Jack Sh. All right. Up first, our coding episode retro. We we shipped we actually shipped and shared us doing something on a screen. ⁓ We did. Well we did. Was it good? Fuzz. I don't know. Was it good? I don't know. Did you watch it? First question did you watch it? I did watch it. I'd watched it a couple times. I also vibe edited. You watched it a couple times, so it must have been good then. Well, no, I was trying to like, you know, make sure that I thought about it enough to talk about it. But I yeah, it was fine. It was I think I think there was a couple there's a few things that I just want to address really. Okay, well hold on, hold on, hold on. Because what really happened folks, what Faz really did Was he watched this episode twice so we could find all the things that he did wrong or all of the things in his head that were wrong to make sure to correct himself because it's it's physically painful for him to to have that out. I didn't like it. I wanted to do some I wanted to I wanna give you a hug so bad right now. I wanted to do some like ⁓ text overlays, which I think I sent to you, Josh, but I didn't I wasn't gonna make it. I just ignored all your messages this week. Yeah, that's ⁓ th this was weeks ago. I did send them. I'm scrolling through our DLC. I remember. It's things like, well, Foz is an idiot and got this wrong. No, I'm not putting that on there. It's fine. ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah. That was funny when I was trying to figure out I so there was a few things I did, which is like w a couple things for you for those of you at home, if you were if you for who are definitely watching that screencast to learn about how to be a better engineer. When you type a command and it and it gives you a hint about where things might be or what you're trying to do, you should read it. That's that's the first tip. First hot tip where I was like, I'm pretty sure the skills are somewhere and it was like, No, these skills are definitely in this directory. And I was like, I don't know where they are. It's weird. I can't find them. That was one thing. And then the other thing when I was like I I I mansplained to you about how ⁓ that superpowers skills which I don't use anymore, I switched to something else, but it it it will do subagent work for you. And then instead of doing that, when you said, Hey, fire up another agent, I just went and made a new directory. It's fine. It's all good. And by the way, you're the only person I even know how to f computer. You do know how to computer. You know how to computer real good. And the the real reality is that we're all computering at different degrees of certainty and free and it's not about that. So you know, yeah, of course. Were mistakes made? Of course. But that's not why folks are watching. They're watching us to yell at the clankers and well actually Well so and surprisingly, and here's where I mean my most ⁓ shocking factoid to come out of this is like that episode has been watched. Like that anyone mean but I mean maybe all of the maybe all of the analytics are Foz. Maybe. That probably is true. But also too I think it was the thumbnail. I think it was the thumbnail. That was a good thumbnail, buddy. What was the thumbnail again? Twenty eight days later reference. ⁓ yeah. Twenty days. That was a good one. That was a I'm having fun. Everyone everyone who has watched it or watched part of it, I don't know if they got through the entire thing. We haven't looked at the analytics yet. They probably didn't. they they all refer to it as like, ⁓ I just saw that new one that you guys released with all the blood all over your face. Yeah. ⁓ Sick. Sweet. Sweet. So good, man. Yep. So Yeah, I mean we successfully built the website. We never shipped it anywhere. we had a lot of fun. I've never seen I've never actually seen the the built website running. Maybe you can you can share what the clankers So is it GHC? JFC. Well, no, you'll st I think you run it. ⁓ no, no, no. There was a run. It it made a run. It made a run shell because it was helpful. ⁓ isn't that make me do it? Thanks, robots. Well, it knows it's like you're not gonna know how to run freaking. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so port three thousand, baby, local host, and ⁓ how basic, right? But we got something running. It's we got something running. It might be basic, but it is It is so functional. It is monoid complete. It is Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that blew my mind about this, because I've never done Haskell before, and also too, when you think about it, if you're building a static site, you probably don't need that much code. But in my mind, I was like, we spent all that time installing GHC. We spent all that time with a robot being like, make it work, figure it out. ⁓ yes, we got it working. Haskell. And there's literally eighty lines of code. Wow, Haskell is a very succinct language, you know? It's like Yeah. Ooh, white space. Wow. And it's just well, it looks like it so it hard coded the episodes. Okay. And I get I think the robot also probably struggled with Haskell and was just like, I can't really figure out how to do strings. It's too hard. Too hard to do IO. Yeah, and then it's just it's just essentially it looks like Haskell syntax to express literal HTML. Yeah, yeah. It just loops over a list and outputs that on the page. Beautiful. Yes. Yep. Looks good. ⁓ looks good. So we finished that and then weeks went by and Josh edited the ⁓ the the episode at my request because I was very excited to critique myself. Nope. Because in the meantime. Josh had something going on. Josh had something cooking in the background. I didn't tell Ian well well the well the juice was cooking because I wasn't sure if I was gonna be able to pull it off. And what did you pull off, Josh? I acquired our domain. I went to an auction. I saw that our our domain, yelling at robots.com, was up for auction. ⁓ when I first when we first started this podcast, ⁓ this domain was being asked for like I think it was fifteen hundred bucks and I did I was like f that and then we bought robot dot gripe and then I went I don't even know why I was there but like I was I could maybe periodically I'm obsessively looking for a domain. I'm like, I wish we could have yelling at robots dot com. And I looked at it and there was an auction and I'm like, well I don't know how high I'm willing to go but I'm gonna take a shot at it. But I didn't want to tell Ian until we had one. ⁓ yeah we got it not only that We got it. We got it for one dollar. One dollar. Woo. Now this is either a testament to the failure of this podcast as a piece of content, or just the inattentiveness of whatever other cyber squatting robots are out there acquiring domains. but we still got it. We freaking got it. And then vi and then Josh Josh one shot at this beautiful, beautiful website. I would like to I mean it was really four four or five shots, but still either way beautiful. I would my favorite part about it is the responsiveness in that if you were to go on mobile. ⁓ wait, did you fix it? ⁓ no. Sorry, bro. There. That's nice. Yes. See yeah. Yeah. CSS is hard, guys. I mean it's CSS is hard. CSS is definitely hard. CSS is hard. Yeah. Yeah, so anyways we've got a website, yelling at robots.com. We've got a website and it's beautiful. And one one question for Josh. ⁓ where's the code, man? Is this you forcing me out of the podcast now that you've got the you've got the website and you've got the ⁓ you got the domain. Is it not pushed to ⁓ to our yelling at robots Twitter? I think so. I don't think so. Is it? I don't know. Let's take a look. At robots repositories. ⁓ there is three. Robot. ⁓ no, there's not. No, no, no. Three is one is our new. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I was just on autopilot. And actually, we'll probably move this. You know, I first I had been using num ⁓ what's don't tell them where it is. Not in this day and age. Don't tell them where our website is. Don't tell anybody. Security through obscurity is no security at all, boss. Let's see, so I'm gonna settings transfer ownership. Mm-hmm. Choose an owner yelling at robots. Yes. Yelling at ⁓ okay. My favorite part about doing this live at robots.com is just forcing passphrase. Is forcing Riverside to just waste storage. F you Riverside. You fing pieces of sh ⁓ Riverside. I mean it is the it's the podcast platform everybody loves. It's preferred platform of podcasts. It's the least sh platform, but it's still sh. But it's the least sh Okay, transferred. Long story short. Yellingrobots.com, check it out. Yellingrobots.org and dot net up for grabs, folks. You can squat those and try to steal our identities, no problem. And I encourage that. I look forward to seeing what you come up with because it's not as easy as it looks, my friends. It's true. It is I'm just gonna give this a quick wipe. Sorry. ⁓ great. Awesome. Feels a little Let's see. ⁓ folks, here we go. You're yeah. ⁓ my god. Wow. I was like that would almost be worth going back to the beginning of the episode, but not. But folks, the lesson here is when your face is ⁓ covered in oil and you're using your phone as a camera, try cleaning off your ⁓ your camera lens first. Whoops. Whoops. Well, you know what the important thing is? You look great now. Good news, there's a hot new version of your favorite software library. Less great news, it's loaded with parasites. And then of course the other big news is ⁓ you've got worms! Yeah. So another Shy Halo t attack. For those of you who don't know what a ⁓ a worm is, it is a sort of virus or attack or whatever you want to call it that ⁓ is self-replicating in that it worms its way through your computer and other computers and spreads like f wildfire. ⁓ this ⁓ so what happened when we woke up on I don't remember what day it was, like Tuesday or something to was it's been a long few days for a lot of people, actually. Yeah a very, very, very popular set of JavaScript libraries and TypeScript libraries ⁓ called the Tanks. Tan stack. Tan stack, which I've used wonderful. So much better than all the other. I've heard lots of good things about it, never had the opportunity to use it. Excellent. I've only used it a little bit, but like I had to make a change to a code base that had been that was using it. ⁓ huh. I'd never used it. it before I was able to make that change so quickly because it was so like profoundly obvious how it works, how eat simple of the change was, it was great. anyways it's popular for a reason. Yeah, it's probably for a reason. ⁓ some attackers got in there. ⁓ I can't remember exactly how it worked. It was probably another It was cash poisoning on GitHub and then they side sidewound their way in. I mean, like again, this is and it was another it was another pre pre-post install hook attack, ⁓ which is seems to be the way it goes these days. But the ⁓ so the crazy thing about it, there's a few crazy things about this story. ⁓ the attack itself was you know, the usual shit. But it worked its way I think by the afternoon it was already into the Python ecosystem. Which is that's crazy because it's jumping across it's jumping across languages now. And I think I ⁓ this is unconfirmed, but later that day, Ruby Gems shut down all new signups and was dealing with some other hot madness. And that seemed too coincidental for me to not believe that it had something to do with this. So, anyways, this thing was spreading across across languages. And what it was doing was the usual thing where it was like installing either on a developer computer on any machine and it was trying Any machine it could. Any machine it could get its little tendrils, its little wormy teeth into burrowing into the soft, juicy bits. And it was harvesting it was harvesting tokens and secrets and passwords and whatever it could get to. I'm hungry for credentials. I'm hungry for wallets. And sending them off to wherever it it should. But the coolest thing, I mean it I mean cool if you didn't if it didn't happen to you, was that this thing had a what what you would call a dead man switch installed. Yeah, this is pretty sweet. You gotta respect him. You gotta respect him for this one. Also, dead man switch just sounds cool. Yeah, so what that is is it installed another script On any machine it infected, ⁓ depending on if it was Mac OS or but I know how to look for it in Mac OS. I'm not sure if the Linux implementation did this too. But it set up a background process ⁓ that would run this script over and over. And what the script did was it would so first it would harvest the GitHub token, send that off, and then it would use the credentials on the machine to continually ping the GitHub API to make sure that token was still valid. And if you went and ⁓ revoke that token, this script would get a four ⁓ four for that token and immediately return RF RF user directory, which for those of you who don't know, that is the delete files command on your computer for your entire user directory. But let me tell you, Fuzz, let me tell you why I appreciate that. Go for it. Well they didn't remove the whole system. So you know, they're just like they were like, hey, you could still use your computer. You don't get any files. You know? Like Unless Unless you were running it as root. That's yeah, but root root root root is in a root but root's not like in the root of the actual file system, right? That's a good question, actually. I don't think so. I it's returned slash root, I think. Yeah, but if you're running as root, ⁓ does the system when you do when you reference tilde, does it reference the root folder? I think it's slash root. I don't think it's a the actual slash. Okay. I don't think it's slash. I don't think they yeah, I'm not a hundred percent sure either. I don't my Linux skills are not up to date or my macOS skills. But either way, yeah, they left you some files. ⁓ yeah. Yeah, they left you some pieces. They left you some temp files. Some pieces to pick up your life. Yeah, the worms are worming their way through the internet, ⁓ causing all sorts of death and destruction. it makes me It's just more fear and anxiety being injected into the entire industry of making software. It's astonishing. And we'll get to that. We'll kind of close out ⁓ with talking about anxiety, but Yeah, this is a major contributor. Like I'm completely rethinking my relationship. You know, it used to be that it's like, ⁓ here's a new tool. Interesting. I'll just ⁓ throw it in there and check it out. And then now it's like, ⁓ guess what? That interesting new library that you wanted to test out has stolen your life and ruined all the things. And propagated. Yeah, I'm I mean I'm there, but I'm also I mean we've talked about this. It's like I'm I'm like, fuck, I gotta get off all the things and like ⁓ what things? Make a firewall in my own home and like make it f you know what I mean? Like I'm I'm like don't connect the name to anything. ⁓ that's true. So Ian is gonna get a little bit of a full Doom Prepper like he has become essentially like the internet savvy equivalent of a doom prepper. Which is just like what you can't see behind the cabinet, it's filled with cans of beans and tomatoes. That's what that whole thing is. It's not a it's not a Murphy bed. It's not a Murphy bed, it's just food. It's just beans and tomatoes. Why they didn't why his kids are always being like, Why do we have ⁓ why only beans and tomatoes, Papa? And he's like, It's nutritionally dense, you little pieces of sh ⁓ he's a great father though. ⁓ yeah, so wrapping that up. ⁓ yeah, just more more chaos, more security chaos roiling through the systems. This, however, has also really To me, this is less something that is new and more latent failure in our independency management that is now really being effectively exploited. I think the tooling w I don't know whether it's the AI I mean the AI AI as tooling to exploit security. It's obvious that this is a huge accelerator for Security for security exploits and for kind of like f for that aspect of of the craft, the dark side of the craft. but it's also this has always been here. It's just that we've been too slow or it's been you know, there's been enough friction. This is an like there's been enough friction to kind of slow us down from this being a real problem. Things are accelerating and I don't and I wanted to stop. So be careful out there, folks. ⁓ I mean r Run your tests in a container far away. Get a dedicated laptop everything. Get a dedicated laptop in a Faraday cage. Yeah, that's right. Air gap everything. Air gap it all. I do I do like the idea of like, you know, you connect to the to the to the hard line, you download your node package and then air gap everything. Faraday cage. ⁓ you strip naked. You're just sitting on the floor with laptop. You never know. You never know. You never know. You never know. It could be, yeah. Your clothes are wired up with RFID tags. It's already inside you. The We've traced we've traced the call. It's inside your sweatshirt. Alright, moving on. No need to worry about the future, folks. At some point we'll all be dead. Except for Elon, of course. Let's end on the happy note, folks. Anxiety. Disconnection. Despair. Over to you, Fuz. Yeah. I put this on the board. I I think that the I've been feeling very I've been feeling a level of disconnection and anxiety ⁓ f for a bit now. And you know, that could be a lot of my own personal sh on, but like I think that the but I'm seeing it more and more with ⁓ especially people in our industry worried about their jobs. and people at work, whether they be red pilled or blue pilled or whatever, in both cases are are being there's this anxiety of like, I'm not keeping up with all the stuff. I'm not giving blah blah blah blah blah. And I think that that's that's leading. And and I've said this for I've been saying this for a while. I've been saying this to people at work. Like the these AI to these this is like the new social media. Like these AI AI tools are Encouraging not encouraging. What's the word I'm looking for, Josh? Like the they they bias us to incentivizing, I guess incentivizing. It they're incentivizing you not like not economically, but incentivizing your human brain to push you into less human connection, like more isolation. And that is a perfect recipe for anxiety and depression. And it's and it is and it's not just in our industry, I would say it's it is Society wide. So one of the things that I put on the board here that was ⁓ shared by one of my colleagues at work, one of my friends, she shared this wired article called The Sad Wives of AI. Now, she shared it because it made her very angry that it the premise was kind of bullsh. It does have a sexist slant to it. It's not great. there is some interesting things in it though. But in general, it does talk about How in any relationship, there's there's a lot of a lot of people's relations personal relationships are being strained out there because one or both of the people are becoming more and more addicted to AI and they're constantly on it and they're constantly on it. They're on it at dinner, they're on it at 2 a.m. They're on it, you know. Really? And it I mean, some of the some of the data that there's some of the they referenced this Harvard Business Review about like ⁓ gender usage, like of of AI. It's kind of it's probably outdated because it's like a year or so old. But it does sway towards males using it and becoming more addicted to it. And that and it also points out that they are probably or my well, my insight is it like if I'm if I'm a corporation building this thing and I can get more money from a certain group of people, I'm probably gonna design it more for that group of people, right? If I know that I can hook them more and get them get more token usage out of those dumb asses. so that that I mean that's just a natural consequence of It's just business, folks. It's just business. It's not person it's just business. Yeah, for sure. It's generally like this isn't a healthy place to be for us as a society. Wait, are you saying the tech industry right now in the middle of the greatest upheaval? A an industry already grounded in And really geared towards the focused destruction of human attention. Not the destruction, the exploitation of human attention for financial gain, that throwing generative AI in the mix, a technology that completely is trained to recreate, predict, and engage as though a human would, who is designed to glaze, my friend, designed to capture. Is a recipe for maybe it's a bad time? Is that what you're saying to me, Ian? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah. It's it ain't great, man. It's really bad. So you you said a couple things that clicked with me. One, that feeling there's and this is it it really is interesting because I do think that there's something to we are in a confluence of at least three very Contributory traumatic experiences, just as human beings. But first off, like, hey, we're all human. We're just human beings. Yeah, I might be a tech legend, but it's at my core, I'm just a person. I'm just a simple man with simple needs. I want to be loved and I wanna love. I want to hug every once in a while. But in technology before AI, there is a f fundamental foundational feeling and experience of FOMO, of I'm falling behind. Always you are because it's true. You are always falling behind. Technology has been accelerating for quite a long time and that sticks with the I mean, you know, software as it is a more abstract form of technology, but that's been accelerating and yeah, guess what? You're always falling behind and you cannot keep up and no one can keep up, but it feels horrible. For those of you out there who are not software engineers, it really feels horrible. It has felt horrible. However, with AI Whoa! It's like if you're if you're feeling bad about getting left behind with like a little match, AI comes in with a big jerry can of fing jet fuel. so indeed, that's that's one and what's okay, so the second thing I think is attention economics. It's it is, you know, if an if social media has taught us anything, it is that big tech is dystopian gives no sh- Is happy to destroy humanity in pursuit of a buck. Like Yeah, there's something about it that I I pointed this out to somebody last week or because we were trying to do like a shared Claude project. And I was trying to like just ask you questions about like, is this the right way to do this? Are these the right tools? Like and it like asking claude. Yeah, ask him Claude. So it would always give you information back, but it ends every f response with a question. 'Cause it's trying to keep you answering and keep you fing coming back. It never just says like nope, this is the answer. You can you know, edit your system prompt so it doesn't do that. Yeah. And I don't know, you know. So it's like you do have influence. But yeah, by default, these guys are all playing from the playbook of big tech, which is, you know, like Meta and ⁓ maybe who who are like any social media company, a really almost any tech company, it's it they're selling ads and it's about engagement. And so that is a a really effective, powerful recipe for Making money. ⁓ so you've got kind of like just the the inherent flop sweat of being a software engineer. You have the dystopian practices of the attention ec economy and just completely libertarian, amoral sh birds running all these companies. And then you have a lot of uncertainty. Like you sprinkle in a tremendous amount of certainty, like we actually don't know what's gonna happen. We don't know. Like this is and this is crazy technology. It is truly crazy technology. and lo and behold, that makes for a a pretty bad time. Yeah, the other thing they talk about, which it just touches on the your Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that the which I we all fing feel and I g this is part this is where the anxiety comes from, I think, right? Is that the well for me anyways, is the idea behind this technology is that we can do more with less. Right? Like i b on paper. But what is actually happening is that it's created this ⁓ what economists call the ideal worker, which is just you've gotta be building all the time now, right? Because you can you can be always building. I can always have something building something. Right? Yeah. And this I've now there's like, ⁓ you now so now what happens, which is like and I think that this was a ⁓ so I switched the earlier I mentioned the skills and I switched to this new thing called ⁓ well, it's just called Skills, but it's by this guy named Matt Pocock, I think is the last name. Anyways, he did he did this incredible talk. ⁓ yeah, okay, so you know him. and he during one of his talks where the the talk, the two hour talk where he was actually like live you know, demonstrating how he uses these skills and what he built and stu stuff like that. There are these long periods where it's doing something, so he just like he answers questions and he like blah blah blah and he asked the qu he asked the crowd. And he he said, Show of hands, how many people feel like they're working more? And building more lately. And it was like everybody in the crowd's like this. And it w and like that wasn't what was supposed to happen. I mean, we're butting up against like larger social economic philosophies here in terms of labor and capital and who's benefiting and who benefits from productivity gains. And and and and I think it's pretty evident that it's the capital holders, right? It's like we're still working a forty hour work week or more. Like what the hell? What the hell, you guys? Like I was I was I I was promised less. I was promised like a two hour work week. I can't remember what the economist was. Was it Keynes or one of these dips? But it was like, Well, by nineteen seventy four, man will only work for five minutes a week and there will be economic success by the nature of yeah. didn't work out. I said that today. I I said I was going back and forth with one of the guys at work. 'Cause he he's you know, I'm I'm not gonna call him fully red pill, but he's very gung-ho about AI and but he's also the guy who's, you know, clearly he's having anxiety about it too. And he's but he's in Poland, so like, you know, there's like he writes something and then I write something, and it's just like asynchronous ⁓ conversation going. But I I I tried this tool that he was like, This thing's gonna be crazy and I and I was like and the tool like it it didn't do what I thought it would do, and it asked some really dumb questions and I was like Buddy, our jobs are safe. I don't think this is the thing. And the first thing he wrote back this morning was like, job safe. He's f another day behind the keyboard. ⁓ Nice. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the the other thing I was gonna say is it doesn't help having I you like, who are the leaders? Who are the leaders in government? Who are the leaders in industry? Who are the leaders in business? Who are Who are kind of like helping us navigate this well. I don't see many. Or any. Many. Really. I should name one. I I don't see any, I guess. I think that like politicians or people in government, like it's really hard to even keep up with or understand what's vapor versus what's real. Mm-hmm. ⁓ and the people like certainly the people in the positions of technology leadership, they're and I do think that there's some truth to like they're they It's economically not viable for them to not be all in and saying, Yes, this is the future. This is like all gonna work and and actually like one of the things that I mean once you start to dig into the economics of these deals, these multi gabillion dollar deals that are propping each other up and whatnot, they have to be like that. If anybody expresses doubt, it's like the house of cards collapses. So but that but you end up having a lot of p people in positions of authority We're like, yeah, yeah, you engineering's over. Like, it's done. It's over. And and that's also not helpful. And then you have all I mean, and and maybe we can close on a happy note. ⁓ wait, I what I do I do want to say one more thing about the article. This is funny. Sure. It says I should say I didn't bother speaking to any of the actual husbands for this story. I'm sick of hearing from the men of AI. So many of us are. They have podcasts. I was like, fuck you! ⁓ Well Fuz I's right, they do have podcasts and Senate hearings and magazine profiles and ⁓ probably a group chat with the president. No, I'm also sick of the men of AI and of which we are too. am I sick of us? No, God no, we're great. We're never we're trying to No, we're trying to like you know, we you and I have talked about kind of what is the point of this podcast. And we're still folks first off Thanks for watching and listening. Don't forget to hit that like and subscribe button, share with your friends, and hey, if you feel like it, drop a comment. All right? We've had one comment on the entire episode, and I answered immediately. You will never get a turnaround like that in a world w shattering podcast, except for yelling at robots. That's how much we care. What does it all mean, Fuzz? Should we be anxious? Should we be disconnected? Should we be scared? Where do we go from the I just I think what Yeah, yeah, yeah. So actually that's a good point. I did want to actually like talk through what can you do. ⁓ there is a very good albeit you want to talk about technical difficulties, ⁓ albeit technically ⁓ technically unsound talk at the Linux, some Linux thing that was in New York a while ago by the Prime Engine, where he just talks about what is the the tit of the title of the talk is I suck. And he's just talking about like what is my value like in this environment and ⁓ it's really good. I would really encourage anyone to everyone to listen to it. ⁓ it definitely made me feel better. What about like what what qualities what qualities of the talk kind of connected or made you feel something? was that his anxiety and all of our anxiet a lot of our anxieties, especially for the older hats in the room, is that my value doesn't come from Being able to code. My value comes from being able to make good decisions and having made all the library of mistakes in my career to know why we do things the way we do them and why we shouldn't do things the way that sometimes these LLMs tell you to do stuff. He gave an example in the talk about some open I don't know if it was an open source project, I can't remember what it was, but basically where it was like. There was a decision at some point in the project to fork Chromium. And he was like, There's no world in which that's a good idea. Just fork it and rewrite it and rust. No problem. So, anyways, but he he he's very it's very it is very ⁓ it seems ⁓ it's a very personal talk and very like Yeah I I would h I would highly encourage that. The other thing I would encourage people to do, which we've started to or I want to do more of at work, is Don't go off in the corner with a robot and try and work alone. Pair program, mob program. As much as you can. I think that there's value in that because for a lot of reasons. One, you maintain human connection and you get to work with other people. And that's honestly like the best part of my job is actually doing that. It's not getting the fing red test to green. and the other thing too is that my my hesitation of letting the robots run wild and write code is a lot of like it g can get out of control very fast. And if I'm doing it on my own, I don't want to be the sole person responsible for any dumb mistakes it makes, because I don't catch every mistake. I don't even catch every mistake that I fing make or that my teammates make. The whole point of having a team is to have multiple people with eyes on what you're doing so that you increase the chances of like less mistakes, right? And I think that that doing it together and working together to synchronously build stuff with AI can actually it might seem slower, but I think in the long term it'll make things faster, of higher quality, and it'll just main it'll help maintain the the knowledge management in your teams. So those are my recommendations and that's what I'm trying to do to ⁓ not feel so sh. From my angle, one is like just I mean it's it's horrible advice. Just calm down, man. Just chill. Calm the f down. This is more so the more I live, I guess, maybe in this environment, but also doing this podcast has been pretty informative for me in terms of getting deeper into the space, really trying to understand and come to grips with what is real, what is not real, what do we know, what don't we know? Yada yada yada. I can I and I mention I've mentioned this before, like It's not gonna look like anyone says. Whatever happens is not gonna look like what anyone says. And the bottlenecks are changing, but we still need people. We still need people to so like the bottleneck is not lines of code anymore. We can generate a million lines of code and rewrite bun and rust instantly. Knowing if that's a good decision, knowing the implications of that, knowing the technical implications, knowing how that changes over time, knowing how that fits into the thing, knowing whether it's worth the risk, knowing like All of those things, that's still necessary. And I think that it's gonna be even more s necessary especially in an environment where we have these agents or these tools which are unreliable. I don't care what anthropic says, these tools are extremely unreliable. Extremely unreliable. And unfortunately they're designed in a way to assure us and reassure us that they know what they're doing. They don't, they don't know anything. They're unreliable prediction machines that Emulate and appear like magic. And and we just need to like work with that and accept that it's like that's that's not the end, that's the beginning of dancing with chaos magic. My new book coming out next fall, Dancing with Chaos Magic from the creators of the world famous Yelling at Robots Pokemon podcast. ⁓ 'Cause it'll be obsolete in a couple of weeks. Well, I'm not gonna write the book. I'm gonna have the fing agent do it. Go on. Of course. I mean, for f sake. Like, look at the amount of slop that's going out of the world. It's like nothing's gonna change. Like, if anything, we're gonna need people to dig us out of this sh hole we've been burying ourselves in. Like now that's not gonna be glorious work. This is not gonna be glamorous work. But it is like hang on and let's see what happens. Yeah. Folks One thing you need to know. Fozz and I have zero answers. We really just started this podcast as an outlet for our own deep, deep anxiety. Because if it's not obvious. But when the answers come, you'll hear it here first on Yelling at Robots. On yelling at Robots dot com.com I guess that's the show for today. Fozz, any any uplifting thoughts before we wrap it up? No, I think we both just gave some uplifting thoughts, and I don't know why. Got so high when I talked about that. I think you're trying to convince yourself. It is. That's what's happening. ⁓ That's a wrap. You just survived another episode of Yelling at Robots. Better luck next time.